This is just another reason why I think it is so dangerous to have a set apart clergy class that we look to- to call out abuse from other pastors or for answers on extremely divisive questions or policies. It is more about propaganda for an issue than it is actually discussing the issue. The real beauty of Dees article is that it gives a real world positive (Briscoes church) showing that it doesnt have to be this wayHalf of the fellowships God given talents do not have to be suppressed based solely on plumbing received at birth. The laity may not perform the Mass. He now coaches. It is good to see that you care much for the integrity of the church and the importance of Scripture. Then Pete helps them put together a life plan to get there. What was the position of women like in the overall culture? . @ frieda: I remember commenting on Dennys post that the terms used to describe complementary were defined differently among evangelicals and that my own Church did not have the same view of it in sacramental marriage where serving one another was based on love, not on a position of the authority of one over the submission of the other spouse. One of our fundamental principles is that men and women need each other, in all areas of life. You can read about them at their website, in 2010, Jill and Stuart participated in a book called, "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" Here still we shall stand. I m taking at least a year off of ministry. But as I read everything in not just chapter context, but book context along with finding the discrepancy between the Strongs and the KJV that was not there regarding most other subjects, I thought everyone would be as happy as I was when I could show that Paul and Peter were actually saying the opposite of what I had been oppressed with my whole life. Briscoe and the elders do not wish to do that. What I was most impressed with was the interactions of Stuart and Jill with my teenage children. There are all sorts of moral standards that can be abandoned because of culture as opposed to the clear teaching of Bible. But at least the pastors did not name, shame, and eject these young people. I watched the whole video. This is heartbreaking and painful to watch. We need so much more of this, as a balance to all the authoritarian weirdness. One day, in heaven, I look forward to our reunion. Neither would have been likely to compromise on inerrancy despite their egalitarian views because of their experience in the conflict over inerrancy. To see and hear mena stage full of mensharing a God-given conviction that God gives gifts to whom He will, both male and female, and that they are now acting on that conviction, is incredible. When I read this, I literally felt sick. The Comp church is far more aligned with the world than the Egal one. The bible says certain things about womens activities within the church, things which people say are heavily influenced by the culture of the day. . Jill Briscoe is one of my favorite Bible teachers. I heard wonderful things about you back then. Those are the home runs. I just got off the phone with someone who got in and emailed me the link. Today certainty has been equated with arrogance. I also read the leadership statement from his church. . Dee, this is a nice post. And then she willingly took poison. The thinking goes like this: the first proposed Civil Rights Act gave more freedom and equality to black women than white women had in some areas. It seems that both of you are unable to accept that it is legitimate for any evangelical, who is totally committed to the Bible, to study it at length, and arrive at an egalitarian conclusion. Once we say that current understandings of cultural impact are more apt to lead to a best understanding of scripture, as opposed to mere recitation of the words themselves, then we have potentially opened ourselves to dealing with other issues based on the same approach to scripture. They talked to them like the young adults they are. When defending orthodoxy, we should rejoice when we encounter stiff opposition, harsh words or persecution. Aw yes, I see in the second half of my comment, I slipped into my thoughts on Sopwiths list of verses, sorry to imply his thoughts were yours. My only hope for you is that you too would learn to walk by faith in this area. And the dignity of wife if regarded as honorable in that the Lord of Life is her Lord as completely as He is mutually honored by her husband. Pete could have kept the whole incident quiet. @ Lea: there was unity among the elders though the Senior Pastor Pete Briscoe held the egalitarian position and the . Appreciate you Dr. Burk. A vital part of our witness as the church is the unity we show in our witness particularly the essentials (very briefly, that God, as Trinity, has revealed himself to us through Jesus Christ, who has made a way for us to worship God fully in spirit and truth). I believe the Bible is infallible. He put his arm around her during worship time and then went up to preach. "One of the things I learned a number of years ago is that grace is doing the most loving thing," he said. I mean, if these men truly see themselves as depraved, then they could not honestly claim to be able to be ethically and morally suitable to step in and take over the place of the Holy Spirit in the lives of women of Christian conscience. Assertions are bad; suggestions are good. Still, whether they realize this or not, the theological rationale for their decision is at odds with a commitment to the Bible's authority. The Scriptures are authoritative and without error in any category of knowledge, including science and history, and are of supreme and final authority in all matters about which they speak. A Case Study: Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. How blessed I am to have known you. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Perhaps we can even learn from one another and grow. For Peter Briscoe of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrolton, Texas, the most important aspect to the entire process is grace. Theyve never produced the final and perfect version; despite their best effort. bc wrote: Because Denise was leaving, Pete would have to leave too. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. I had some inkling it was related to these guys, but no real knowledge. Hard to swallow claims to affirming inerrancy while at the same time saying that doesnt mean what it says.. I agree the the slippery slope arguments are made. We had been so grateful for his response but he wanted to admit it publicly. He also names the specific sin when telling the congregation but doesn't go into details. Addeddate 2020-04-06 03:24:25 Artist Pete Briscoe As she rose to speak, a number of young men turned their backs on her, showing their disdain for a women teacher. Thank you for your and your churchs witness. Pathetic. I dont say this, but St. Paul said this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Briscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. Bent Tree Bible Message from Sunday, 10 January 2016 Title: Part 1: Daniel Intro - January 10, 2016 Series: Behind the Scenes: The Book of Daniel Speaker: Pete Briscoe Notes. 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; I have never understood making the literal Word more important that the Spirit behind the Word. 1:21; 1 Cor. Last night I watched Pastor Pete Briscoe give his rationale for leading his church to welcome female elders to their leadership structure (see above). Where is Stuart Briscoe? You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to. J.R.R. Growing up in a ministry family, Pete watched and learned from his parents and witnessed the reach and power of Telling the Truth's media outreach. Briscoe and the elders say that they intend to be a conservative church that maintains a tenacious commitment to the inerrancy of scripture. On her last furlough before retiring, a little Oregon Baptist church, that had given her some of her support through the decades, was going to celebrate her birthday one Sunday. You dont believe women should be prevented from all church roles but the nursery = you dont believe in the bible. Were very dedicated to accurate interpretation. before and it is sick. I always thought I was too dumb to understand stuff, but now Im learning Im pretty smart. I read Dr. Burks book Transforming Homosexuality it is about 130 pages long and basically says even the orientation is wrong and needs to be repented of and eventually changed. Whatever is going on at this church, I hope it is contagious. In this way of complementarian living, the humility of the husband before God is not tempted. This is well written and a needed message. "We can never diminish the value of these people as we do lead them through the process of discipline and with the principles of restoration," he said. PS Raleigh would be a great place to start a satellite. Unlike the Watermark example, the woman repented, reconciled and eventually went on a local Christian radio show with her husband to discuss the experience. IMO the decisions need to take all the variations and consequences into consideration early on. They want to simulate persecution with the secret House Church meme. I am sure this will continue into the future, as he made it clear that his doctrine is shaped by the Bible, and nothing else. How do we make sense of the world God gave us (natural revelation) and the Word God gave us (special revelation)? In cases where the individual in question has come out in a sense of transparency, there are churches where as long as they maintain a narrative of struggling with SSA, theyll be accepted as members, although sometimes not permitted to lead or do anything with children (because old myths die hard). For example, whilst God does reveal himself as father, you forget that he also reveals himself as mother (Isaiah 49:15 and many more). DTS has shown nothing but grace and respect to my mom over the years, they are dear friends and I would not want people thinking poorly of them. Those concerns have not diminished at all after these many years. We see this in your comments. Ive read some of the writings of both Stuart and Jill Briscoe, and theyre some of the theologians I trust to always have their theology right. If there was one thing I thought was a bit weak it was his explanation of 1 Timothy 2, but maybe he was running out of time. Briscoe and the elders say that they intend to be a "conservative" church that maintains a tenacious commitment to the inerrancy of scripture. I pray God will redeem the years for all of the gifted women who have been sidelined all that time, waiting for the Holy Spirit to open a way for them to use their gifts. Other than that, what a lovely story. They were both powerhouses. I know that you do not believe that such a thing is possible but I can assure you that it exists in this particular church. You can even read their exiled musings here: expastors.com. Only later did I realize that the Pastor was one of those that didnt think women should speak in church (or even at potlucks). Shortly after graduating, he and his wife Libby moved to Dallas, Texas to lead Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. @ okrapod: Thank you, Dee. Dee, I tell people the same thing, whether its a church setting or other group. Yet it would also be wrong to say that priests, in terms of authority, are equal to the laity. During a worship service one Sunday evening, Briscoe had come down to the third row as he noticed that it was hard for her. Before that it was a focus on what is feminine. My daughter was quite sick with a brain tumor and the church was close by. Back during the Vietnam Era there was only one Protestant clergyman who publicly opposed the conflict, Dr. Martin Luther King, the rest were all Jesuits as far as I know. We are actually seeing that right now with the new focus on testosterone. 1 WartburgW 3:2 An elder then may be blameless, the wife of one husband, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; and must like pug dogs. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote: It is similar to what Congress does with bills they want passed. He took at least a year off of ministry. Plus, life honestly goes better if you avoid those pitfalls. He does not appear to have a testosterone problem. some YouTube video Ive never been able to find again (the visual for that couplet was Fred Phelps leading one of his demonstrations), Just before pronouncing Anathemas from the Institutes and looking for the stake and fagots. Firstly, this whole topic seems to be one where grace is lacking on the part of the complementarians. We believe the Scriptures are to be interpreted in a normal and literal way and that they are understood as the believer is guided by the Spirit of God. What helped her in that process was Briscoe's care. Pastors aren't fake; the struggle is real When a megachurch pastor resigns because he's burned out, or because he's experiencing personal problems, critics often rush in to claim that pastors are fake. The bible nowhere talks about church membership as different for women and men. This was the same conference where these same people who turned their backs on Jill Briscoe succeeded in having Ann Lotz cancel her speaking engagement at this same conference. Bent Tree Bible Fellowship is conservative in their doctrinal stance. My daughter, Abby, attended one service when she visited Dallas and said she could listen to her for hours. My husband and I were taking notes since Pete was speaking and his teaching is awesome. Next year we are about to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation whos watch word was sola scriptura. Briscoe addressed this briefly in the video. He is a truly humble man. When my husband, Bill, said that he was a cardiologist at Baylor, Pete's eyes lit up as he asked Bill if he knew Joe. I hold the church would have failed miserably without women, it actually would not exist. /S /Lbl /P 337 0 R >> /Im30 268 0 R /S /2011#E6#AD#A3#E6#96#87-1 /#20Char#20Char18 /Span /K 4 In endobj /StartIndent 0.0 /S /2011#E6#AD#A3#E6#96#87-1 157 0 obj . I was the vice chair of the deacons, and was tasked with setting out the process we would follow in making a recommendation to the church. And when girls and women have equal authority and opportunities, communities are more apt to thrive as violence decreases and economic stability increases. . We requested they meet with the involved party and us to discuss the matter. @ Dave (Eagle): But I live a couple of hours from there. Although Briscoes church upholds a high view of Scripture, you seem to suggest that different interpretations on womens roles in the Scriptures is reason enough for the church to divide. For those who are very old and very young, and for those who may not have the strength to leave what no longer respects their integrity . To rebuke feminism/egalitarianism is an act of faiththough the world laughs, those who walk by faith will be vindicated in the end. The term for the ones who turned them over was called traditores which means those who hand over. The term became a proper name in the word Traitor. Also women are more easily deceived so you should trust and do anything a man at church tells you to do. But I would be very interested to know what you feel is problematic about the video. The bible says certain things which have been dissected extensively about homosexual behavior (among other things) things which are limited in scope compared to the current issues on this topic and which are heavily influenced (or so the argument goes) by the culture of the day. Return to homepage. She is a wonderful Bible teacher. I say all this because the slippery slope argument has no credibility if people are willing to engage in discussing not indoctrinating. But we have great teachers who are women and some are included in the Doctors of the Church. I was thrilled that Briscoe pointed out a few examples that are usually ignored like Luke 8. A traitor is one who hands over his Bible. To know there is a theologically conservative church with a deeply rooted all-male elder board who changed their minds after sincerely searching Gods word, is a great encouragement to me, as my own elder board has not even considered doing so. Unchristian in every way I can think of truly. Sorry, my comment may have implied this. When I read this, I literally felt sick. I am doing things a bit differently in Raleigh but the spirit of Jesus, as it shone through these wonderful folks at BTBF, is part of who Iam as a Christian. It reminds me of an illness I had once that left me in terrible muscle pain. A response from Denton Bible My church nearby. OR is operating at a 14 year old maturity level (Im looking at you mark driscoll!). Denny, one more comment. Pete Briscoe was Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, TX for nearly 30 years. @ okrapod . Membership Covenants His sermon amounts to a recitation of long-standing egalitarian readings of scripture. If women, then why not LGBTQ people? those terms . So please let me respond. One. It took the devil to deceive Eve but only a human to deceive Adam. It was at another seminary. And surely the increasing order of creation must imply that woman, created after man, is superior, just as man is superior to the animals? Furthermore, if the hermeneutical issues are as serious as I have indicated above, then it would be a matter of faithfulness for Christians to contend against such teaching. Thank you! 1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. A He-Man Woman-Haters Club NO GURLZ ALLOWED! Joe was a janitor at Baylor who would pray for the patients as he cleaned their rooms. He stopped and pointed the two of us out. He was told that he could no longer be a member of BTBF. If not, Christ and Paul were bad delegators of authority as only men assumed leadership positions. Hi JASON, Description The BEMA is a fictional dramatic production inspired by the biblical principle in II Corinthians 5:10 that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due to him for the things done while in the body. In The Bondage of the Will, Luther said to Erasmus (his debate opponent) that Christians should glory in assertions. I cant speak for Denny Burk, but I do know that he allows for a diversity of opinions to be expressed during the discussions of issues he posts about . I have been a deaconess, worship leader, childrens choir director, support group leader, etc etc and I have seen churches who were infiltrated by the Shepherding movement and overbearing control freaks try to take over. After all, when a feminist wants a baby, she knows she will need a man. . There is one on Sanibel. 1. They tack on a lot of unrelated things to the bill and so if another Congress person is against that then they are positioned as wanting children to starve or hate refugees or something. 1. The feel of it is very different from evangelical protestantism even when there are doctrinal similarities on paper about some things. I say all this because the slippery slope argument has no credibility if people are willing to engage in discussing not indoctrinating. Where Is Pete Briscoe Now Pete and his family find great joy in experiencing the Life of Christ every day. Especially when people with no sense at all apply it to 14 year olds. Adam was not deceived. Simply disgusting. Many know of a few years back of Irving Bibles landmark decision to embrace women as pastors. So you could be an A-hole Theres no middle ground on that question. "One of the things I learned a number of years ago is that grace is doing the most loving thing," he said. I though you might like to hear from someone who attended his church and knew Pete quite well. Why Did Pete Briscoe Leave Bent Tree In the Spring of 2019, Pete stepped out of his role as senior Pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. He created marriage to bring us joy, so His instructions are well worth reading. Wow! I think I'm on firm ground to say they still love Jesus, very much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsTk5i7mPw. And hundreds of Neo-Cal SBC pastors heads have exploded. Now there is a scholar who will rock your world! For some reason, it seems to be the only site on the internet that I can not get into. Many churches will discipline, even excommunicate people who are openly sexually promiscuous. We were short time members of Ed Young Jr's church in Dallas. As usual we have a clergy class that are pretty much making them with their factions of followers. __ It is God Who gives a soul to each living human person. I incorporated it into todays post: Being Egalitarian and Taking the Bible Seriously. Thank you to the pastor of Bent Tree Fellowship for his faithfulness in believing that women to whom the Spirit has given gifts should be free to use them, for working so many years with those who did not hold that same belief, and for being so understanding of those who will find such a radical thing to be very hard. However, with a threat that the state convention would take away our building, the church voted, narrowly, to retain the men only provision. The first Sunday we attended the church, we introduced ourselves to Pete. Also, proof-texting is not very helpful and I find it rather ironic. If we threw them out, how would they hear Gods Word and witness and experience Gods transforming love? This was pretty much a fight in Christian academic circles which eventually brought us the Danvers statement and the made-up word complementarian. I would like to point out one error in your story. You may disagree, but this is our honest concern before God. A public displaying of the churchs unity is very important to our witness a witness which is not achieved by saying that unity lies merely in the invisible church. Bent Tree Bible Message from Sunday, 14 December 2014 Title: Part 8: Jesus, Better Than Striving Series: Better - A New and Living Way (Hebrews. or GAWDs Anointed. So I know about the wheaties thing. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. But at the same time, the impact the person has had on people's lives doesn't diminish the seriousness of the sin, Powell highlighted. Ms. Hummel delivered the sermon because Pete was on vacation. As an Egalitarian who has been in complementarian churches for years, Ive been there. Our consciences draw a line as to what we are permitted to do under any authority . The Word was made for men and women, not men and women for the Word. These days, Grown-ups on the side of ANY issue are pretty scarce in general. But yeah, women are the ones we should blame here. That is something to be thankful for. Bent Tree now stands on a slippery slope. Most churches will not grant membership to homosexuals. Burk had this to say. Let the soil dry out and then give it a thorough water. Breaking away from a church is a terrible, traumatic thing. There is much more that can and should be said about this, but I will end here. Eric, I am an egalitarian. I did not know that some churches would deny membership to homosexuals base on SSA, but probably some would based on sexual behavior. I mean, if these men truly see themselves as depraved, then they could not honestly claim to be able to be ethically and morally suitable to step in and take over the place of the Holy Spirit in the lives of women of Christian conscience. Egalitarianism is simply the first. And when the authority of Scripture is undermined, the gospel will not long be acknowledged. I meant to say that YRR pastors signed their churches up for the Secret Church Simulcast. Self-Paced Pastoral Training by Pete Briscoe. . Pete and his family find great joy in experiencing the life of christ every day. Pete Briscoe asked me to lead a Sunday School class on the Reformation. This church sounds wonderful. For her, that was a defining moment because the point leader of this church expressed grace to her in a way that meant the world to her, Briscoe said. In the Spring of 2019, Pete stepped out of his role as senior Pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. BTBF practices church discipline but do so with thoughtfulness and, in so doing, get results. Why arent pejorative terms like gymnastics used about arguments for pedobaptism? By the way, this is one reason why I think we just dont see many strongly inerrantist-egalitarians (meaning: those who hold unwaveringly to inerrancy and also to egalitarianism) in the younger generation of evangelicalism. As the the rest of your comment, IMO practicing evangelicals and practicing catholics have nothing more than perhaps one tight rope between them, they are that different in many ways. It would be a slander against Rome to say that she holds that priests, who alone may perform the Mass, are inherently superior human beings to the laity who cannot. However, there may be no way the authority of Scripture is being undermined more quickly or more thoroughly in our day than through the hermeneutics of egalitarian readings of the Bible. that tells me he is open to diversity in the whole Church as something to be celebrated rather than excluded. Oh to have a church around here like this! I believe that abuse in the church is rampant and needs to be exposed. Its funny he mentioned that it took 25 years to get to this point and for 24 years he waited for the Holy Spirit to move. Oops, you specifically mentioned church membership for homosexuals and I took off in the direction of women. Often times, masculinity gets defined as just being anything that is not considered feminine, one result being that anything feminine (including women) are treated like second class. 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